In this podcast we look at potential ways to get beyond the time-consuming, and sometimes quite heated, arguments between those who believe that aggregate ‘green growth’ is possible and those who believe that environmental constraints will oblige us to adopt a different economic goal. Beth Stratford, an economics researcher who is a fellow at the New Economics Foundation and the co-author of the report ‘The UK’s Path to a Doughnut-Shaped Recovery’, outlines an agenda that she believes both degrowth advocates and green growth advocates should be able to sign up to. She describes four strategies for reducing growth dependency in the economy while simultaneously improving societal wellbeing. Political feasibility and the challenges of movement-building are also discussed. Seán Ó Conlaín, David Somekh and Caroline Whyte participated in the interview.